Michelle MiJung Kim: Podcast Interview

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Katherine Golub:  [00:00:00] first I want to, just invite you to introduce yourself, to folks and, what you want listeners to know about yourself, what work you do now, and what called you to do that work.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah, thanks

Michelle MiJung Kim: for coming. Uh, hi, everyone. My name is Michelle MiJung Kim. I use she/her pronouns. And for those of you listening, I am an East Asian woman. I have a cute little bob, and I’m wearing a red sweater that I knit myself, so I’m quite proud of that.

Katherine Golub:  It’s very cute.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Uh, thank you. I am a writer, author of the book called The Wake Up: Closing the Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change. I am also a podcast producer and host. the podcast is called I Feel That Way Too, where we talk about, some of the most tricky questions that we have about life, from relationships to friendship to, social justice to [00:01:00] relationships with my mom.

I am coming to this work from the lens of both storytelling and social justice. I grew up and, migrated from South Korea. I was born in Korea and immigrated to the US at the age of 13. I came out as queer when I was in high school, which was the beginning of my politicization journey.

I was an active youth organizer throughout high school and college. and then I did a complete 180 by going into management consulting where I interacted with this discipline called diversity and inclusion. back then it wasn’t called DEI. And imagine being a youth organizer in a corporate setting- Mm-hmm

and seeing how people were talking about what kind of resembles social justice issues, but in a very sanitized, whitewashed kind of way. And I think that was the beginning of this, percolating of ideas around [00:02:00] how do I bring in more honesty into spaces that need it? And, I think that through line has served me throughout all of the projects that I’ve taken on, whether it was starting my own business, doing DEI education in the workplace, or, writing a book or, starting a podcast.

And the through line has always been how can we be more courageous, and how do we do that together? How do we build community that can take collective risks and create conditions where we can build collective courage?

Katherine Golub:  in your podcast you share aboutat the start of the genocide in Gaza, you had that courage.

You stayed committed to that value of honesty and continued to follow that through line and were very, vocal about the genocide in Gaza. And as a result, you talk about how, I don’t know if you said, like, 90% of your business evaporated. Can you share [00:03:00] about that experience?

Michelle MiJung Kim: yeah, that moment still feels quite visceral-

Katherine Golub:  Yeah

Michelle MiJung Kim: because of the amount of information that I was processing, both through my mind and my heart. I was on social media constantly because that was one of the only reliable sources of information coming out of Gaza.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I remember watching one of these clips of a mother wearing a hijab holding her, what looked like an infant.

Mm. And just, she wasn’t crying, she wasn’t wailing, but the baby was clearly dead. Sh- the baby was wrapped up in this white cloth that you see, people being buried in. And she was holding the baby in her arms and just whispering to the baby. Mm. And that stillness of that image stuck with me [00:04:00] forever.

and I remember thinking, “How is it possible that people are not talking more about this genocide?”

And feeling so much pain and anguish and rage at the situation. Mm. And it felt like there were people who were hesitant to speak out because they felt like they didn’t know enough about the situation.

There were people who felt like they, didn’t wanna speak out because they didn’t want to be retaliated against by their employer or by people that they know. some people weren’t speaking out because they didn’t wanna hurt their Jewish friends’, feelings.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And so there were so many different things happening, and at the same time there was different narratives that were being put out around what antisemitism and Zionism, look like, and how those things are often [00:05:00] collapsed in a very dangerous way.

And I felt as though I was almost living in a different universe to people who were also doing DEI work at the time.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: People who were doing anti-oppression work. And there was that very, disappointing, almost like a sense of betrayal that I felt from other people who did not speak out.

And maybe that was also amplified by the fact that I lost, yes, 90%, probably more over the years than that, 90% of my income, Very quickly I had clients canceling already signed contracts, engagements that we had been planning for months, and I was stunned

Katherine Golub:  …

Michelle MiJung Kim: because my whole life I was actually rewarded for speaking truth to power.

Yeah. My whole life I was celebrated for being, quote-unquote, “courageous” and being honest, right? But [00:06:00] somehow with Palestine, it seemed like I had crossed the line. That was the threshold that these institutions that I was celebrated by could handle.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So that, I think, was the beginning of my own personal identity crisis and unraveling also-

just around how much I needed to build myself back up to feel a sense of worthiness without the institutional validation and celebration.

When I was rejected by the, by the spaces that I thrived in, and that I got a lot of validation on my, ability to create change inside those spaces, I felt like I had nothing to really stand on.

and it was like the promises that I thought we had, the social contracts I thought we had around our [00:07:00] shared values around equity and justice, our shared goals around creating a better world, were all false.

And the massive amounts of the level of disillusionment that I experienced.

Yes, I knew that there, the DEI, craze was something that was mixed with- Mm … both performative intentions and some organizations that really wanted to see change happen. And DEI, as a field, I had a lot of skepticism and cynicism for, and I had seen some really amazing work come through with that.

Yeah. But this was another level of disillusionment, and also clarity around how these systems are connected to- Mm-hmm … something much bigger than the tech industry or the corporate industry that’s contained within the US, that I think I first, for the first time, I really understood the [00:08:00] impacts of imperialism- Yeah

capitalism, that stretches far beyond our borders.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And yeah, it was a lot of waking up, like my book. I always talk about I chose the, the title The Wake Up because it’s- The Wake

Katherine Golub:  Up.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah … about that process of waking up to new realities that you weren’t, aware of, right? Yeah. And boy, did I wake up to a whole another level of systems of oppression that I, hadn’t really engaged with firsthand.

Yeah. and also waking up to myself, what I’m made of. Yeah. what I need to work on, what I need to tend to, what I need to heal.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

It’s, it’s a lot, It

Michelle MiJung Kim: is.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah. I mean, both

the witnessing of so much horror and heartbreak that is ongoing. and then it’s like you had been looking through this, lens at the [00:09:00] world, and it feels like there was a shattering

It’s like, okay, I thought that this was a thing. Yeah. And it’s not. and therefore, where do I belong? Who am I now? Like, yeah. How are you doing? How are you, how are you? Big question. Big question.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I love that that’s the question that came to you.

I can also see kind of like the visceral, reaction- Right … you’re also having. Mm-hmm. As I’m sure it brings up some of the memories that you hold. Yeah. So I just appreciate the space to be able to soften and be tender with each other.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: for, I think, the past three years, I have been doing a lot of inner work.

Mm-hmm. That’s been some of the most challenging and painful work that I’ve done. and I think I’m starting to come out the other end. Mm. Knock on wood. Where I do feel a bit more centered around who I am, because in many ways, the [00:10:00] worst case scenarios and the nightmares that I used to have had already happened.

and that’s sort of a relief.

Katherine Golub:  Mm …

Michelle MiJung Kim: grew up low income, and having any sort of financial instability has always been a big fear of mine.

Katherine Golub:  Totally.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And, like, my dad went through bankruptcy twice, and I know what it’s like to worry about how much money you have in the bank account, and I never, ever, ever wanna go back to how life was when I was younger.

And so I have this scarcity mindset around money and financial trauma that brings up all kinds of stuff. And so when I lost all my income streams… And I was making good money as a entrepreneur, as a public speaker, and I was doing all the things that I love, and I thought I had made it, right?

I had designed the life that I have always wanted. Mm-hmm. And it’s so funny because the year before year before October 7th-

Katherine Golub:  Uh-huh …

Michelle MiJung Kim: I remember feeling like I [00:11:00] had designed my life just the way that I had wanted, and I would tell people, like, “I’m just so grateful, but I’m also really worried that all of this can go away one day.”

Katherine Golub:  Mm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I had that anxiety, and somehow my body kind of knew that- this was temporary.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So I took every engagement so seriously and with so much gratitude because it just felt so precious, and I didn’t know when, poof, things were gonna disappear. And people would say, “Well, my gosh, this is your, like, past trauma talking,” and, you know, “You gotta, like, really enjoy it, embrace it, and it’s not gonna stop because you’re amazing,” and da, da, da, da, da.

And so when- The thing happened when people left-

Katherine Golub:  …

Michelle MiJung Kim: and money wasn’t coming in. And also bigger than money, because I had savings, bigger than the actual financial part, I, I think the biggest thing that I struggled with was the sense [00:12:00] of relevance.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: When no one’s giving me the stage anymore, when no one is allowing me to enter through the door into their institution, when I don’t have an audience anymore, then what work do I do?

Then who the fuck am I?

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Right? And all I have is my values to stand on, and that’s not gonna feed me. So there was a lot of fear. There was a lot of panic. and so I think the last few years have been around rebuilding my sense of self and worthiness-

Katherine Golub:  Yeah …

Michelle MiJung Kim: So compared to how I felt even last year, I feel so much more sturdy.

and I think this is, like, a different foundation that I’ve built than the one that I had before, so I’m grateful for that.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I haven’t recovered fully from the financial hit. I’m still trying to figure out what is the right lane for me to exist in- in this time.

Yeah. [00:13:00] And that’s a really scary thing, you know? Because I’ve always depended on my career to give me that sense of stability and tetheredness.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So those are all the things that are present for me and in my body. But I also feel great that it’s warm outside.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: My two cats are doing great.

And I have a loving partner who supports me, and, I have a roof over my head. I have savings in my bank account. and I have also taken on some clients who really align with my values, which is another blessing. So overall, I would say that I am doing well, all things considered.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I remain hopeful.

Katherine Golub:  hearing your story reminds me of it’s totally different story, but when I was 24, [00:14:00] my partner at the time was profiled and picked up and deported to Mexico.

Oh,

Michelle MiJung Kim: God.

Katherine Golub:  And, and he’s now the co-parent of my 18-year-old. Mm-hmm. So we, we got a visa after six years. It was a very hard moment.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm-hmm.

Katherine Golub:  I was working with the Hotel Workers Union. I moved from New Haven to Phoenix to be closer to Mexico, and a- about a month after I moved to Phoenix, I discovered I was pregnant at a routine doctor’s appointment, and then I moved to Oaxaca, Mexico when I was seven months pregnant.

So the, like, life being like, “Ah.”

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Like-

Katherine Golub:  Shit. Right? Life is life-ing. Life is, like, life is life-ing. Yeah. It, like, shakes you, shakes you and puts you in a totally different place than you expected you’d be.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah.

Katherine Golub:  There was a story that I really took solace in during that whole many years of transition-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm

Katherine Golub:  I’m not sure, if you’ve heard it, but the, the story of Inanna, It’s one of the most ancient stories that we have written record of. The tablets are from, like, 3,000 years [00:15:00] ago from ancient Sumer- Oh my God … which is present day Iraq. And it’s the story of Inanna, the ancient Sumerian queen of heaven and earth, and she gets a call to visit her long forgotten sister, Ereshkigal, who’s the queen of the underworld.

Mm. And there’s this part of the story where she’s going down to the throne room of the underworld, and she’s been like, she’s the queen, she’s the priestess, she’s the everything. She’s the mother, she’s the wife, she’s the everything. And Ereshkigal has been the queen of the underworld, and the gatekeeper says, “Should I let her in?”

And Ereshkigal says, “Yes, but at every gate, take something from her. Let her come to the throne room bowed low.” Wow. And so there’s these seven gates. On the ancient tablets, the same phrases are repeated. The gatekeeper asks Inanna, “Who are you?” [00:16:00] she answers, “I’m Inanna,” and to pass through the gate, the gatekeeper takes something from her.

So at first it’s her crown, and then it’s her robes, and then it’s her staff. So by the time she gets to the throne room of the underworld, she’s naked and bowed low. And then Ereshkigal fastens the eye of death on her and hangs her from a hook. And it’s through the support of her allies outside who she’s prepared to support her, finally, she’s revived and she’s brought back to life.

And- Wow … and when one telling of the story, she has to go through each of the gates on the way back, and she gets to decide whether she takes back the thing with different meaning or she leaves it behind or, and there’s this much longer process. I first learned to tell this to new parents who are integrating that new identity of- Mm-hmm

which takes a much longer time than giving birth, which is like a day. It’s like everything’s destroyed or everything’s transformed in a moment, and then there’s this long process of [00:17:00] reintegration and finding yourself.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm-hmm.

Katherine Golub:  the journey of who are you now?

that’s the archetypal question of any great story, right? And when the gatekeeper takes something from her- Mm-hmm … he says, “What is this?” And he’s, or they, they say, “Inanna, the rules of the underworld are perfect. To pass you must pay a price.”

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm.

Katherine Golub:  And yeah, so I just see, like-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah …

Katherine Golub:  I’ve certainly needed to grapple with that question, too.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Absolutely. Oh, thank you for that story. I had not heard of it. And- Yeah … That resonates in many ways.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah. it’s really supported me, and supported many of my clients.

Yeah. I really rely on it. Yeah. So I’m, I’m curious with that. Like, often a call isn’t like, “Oh, I’m gonna be big and wonderful.” Like, a call can be something we’re, like, really, really excited about, And so often, like, life calls us to make a change w- through, through losing our work, through- Mm-hmm

through events that we would not want to [00:18:00] happen, right? Just illness, disability. Like, I- Yeah, yeah … for everyone has their own thing. So I’m c- so I’m curious. I know when I first reached out to you, I said I wanted to talk about trade-offs, ’cause that was one of my favorite parts of your book, and I know that on your podcast you said, “I didn’t have any other choice but to speak up,” right?

And so this like, when we let go of something-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm-hmm …

Katherine Golub:  sometimes it’s just like it’s taken from us. We have no choice. And sometimes there’s a really active decision-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm-hmm …

Katherine Golub:  conscious choice of needing to let something go. But I’m curious what comes up for you, and I-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah

Katherine Golub:  share that. Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, thank you for that, and talking about trade-offs is also one of my favorite things.

Katherine Golub:  Me too.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. ‘Cause it’s probably the most challenging and also revealing things about doing social justice work, or just living our lives with our values intact. and it’s tough. It’s not [00:19:00] clean.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: when I go back to that moment around Palestine and speaking out, did I know that there was- Risk associated with it, yes.

did I really not have a choice? No, I had a choice. There were many choices, and there were also many trade-offs. And it’s one of those things where when I talk about the act of courage, I often tell people that it’s actually not about being fearless or overcoming your fear even, but it’s riding with the fear.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And doing the thing while you are fully terrified. Um, and sometimes it’s calculated. Sometimes you weigh the pros and cons, sometimes you weigh the trade-offs, sometimes you do the cost analysis, and then you speak out, which is very intentional and thoughtful. Or sometimes you just do it because your body just tells you to.

Yeah. And you think about the ramification later. And for me, it was the [00:20:00] latter.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I don’t think I had fully calculated what was gonna happen. I certainly didn’t expect the vast majority of clients to fire me.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: but go- going back to the videos that I was watching, the people who were being killed, I felt like this is just the mo- mo- this is the most consistent thing I can do that I’ve been doing my entire life, and it just felt like the right next step, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I don’t think I had really thought through the ramifications and the consequences. but what it felt like was, of course I’m going to do this.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: The choice is not really a choice-

Katherine Golub:  Yeah …

Michelle MiJung Kim: because it was so obvious which path I needed to go on. Mm-hmm. And, you know, people sometimes ask me the question, “Do you ever…

Do you think you would have done things differently, [00:21:00] knowing what you know now, and knowing all of the heartache that has come from that moment and that decision? Would you have done things differently?” And I think that’s what gives me solace, is that, no- Yeah … I wouldn’t have- Yeah … done anything differently.

I, I rack my brain over and over again, like, “What would I have done differently?” could I have said this in a different way? Could I have posted about this in a softer way, or more palatable way? Like, could I have done this offline? All these questions, and I’m, I’m really proud of the way that I acted.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I am kind of at a loss when people, say things like, “Oh my gosh, you are so courageous. It just feels weird to me. It feels like it shouldn’t… It, it, the act of courage maybe is, the thing that I feel sometimes, a lack of ownership around. Mm-hmm. But yes, objectively speaking- Mm-hmm,

Katherine Golub:  mm-hmm

Michelle MiJung Kim: that was courageous, [00:22:00] but it didn’t feel like that in the moment.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Because it was more like, it felt more like a moral obligation to me- Mm-hmm … than an act of courage.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Because I wasn’t thinking about the trade-offs and the fear. I traded off, I guess, my professional career, my clients, my financial stability, all the accolades and validation that I had received from institutions that I wanted to be, acknowledged by.

And the biggest trade-off was my sense of self.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: The way that I had built up my identity. And it was really scary, but

I think I am in a place where I feel more sturdy- Mm-hmm … because I lived through that. Mm-hmm. And, and then with the trade-off too, what I realized was we in the United States really don’t have an alternative [00:23:00] infrastructure that allows for people to be more courageous, and

I think that was the thing that I had to grieve a lot, that I didn’t have a short-term or immediate answer to. Mm. So when I think about the kind of disappointment and betrayal I felt towards my colleagues who were doing also DEI work inside, corporations and how they remained silent, I judged them- Mm

pretty harsh- harshly, and I was very outspoken about the responsibility of anyone doing anti-oppression work, anyone doing an, a equity work. It’s just, this is, this must be a red line for all of us, otherwise we have nothing to stand on. And I also knew that many people, especially ones with dependents, ones with, real life obligations, it was a harder thing to do.

Mm. I don’t have a child. I have, enough savings to last [00:24:00] me. I have health insurance through my partner. These are the privileges that I hold that allow me to be able to take the kind of risks that some people cannot.

And I think while I was honoring my emotions, I was also holding the fact that as a society, we have really failed to create the kind of safety net that people need to be able to take more risk.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And that we are so out of practice-

Katherine Golub:  Yeah …

Michelle MiJung Kim: in taking collective risk.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: That we are so out of practice with asking ourselves the tough questions around what am I willing to give up, and what do I actually really need to be able to get through this, and who can I count on to hold me?

Yeah. That, I think, is the most urgent thing that we can be doing as a community, creating that support system for one another, especially at a time when infrastructures are not [00:25:00] enough. The existing infrastructures of this government is not enough to sustain the most marginalized among us, let alone, citizens, right?

Mm-hmm. Who are also being repressed and, targeted. So I think that was also the big aha for me. It’s like, wow, we need to start building the conditions in which we can be courageous. Mm. And it’s not effective for me to just be yelling at people to risk more when I am not also creating- that backbone for our community.

And, you know, I’m not, I don’t have a lot of empathy for people who are, who have a lot of, enough savings, who have the skills to be able to get a job, who, um, are in a p- a position of power and privilege where they can actually be taking more risk, far more risk than the vast majority of people.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm. [00:26:00]

Michelle MiJung Kim: I don’t have a lot of empathy for them.

Mm-hmm. And I tend to be more critical that- Mm-hmm … no, you need to, you need to risk more. You need to really sit with who, what you value and what your priorities are, and be really honest with yourself. Like, do you actually care about the things that you say you care about? and how can you embody that in a m- way that feels more aligned?

but for people like I, like friends who, my friends who are disabled, who need health insurance through their work. Yeah. or people who are undocumented, who really just cannot take the kind of risk, that I was taking on, like going to, going to direct actions, getting arrested, things like that, right?

So I understand that there are layers to this courage, framework that I have around, like, how much risk can we handle, and how do we step in knowing our positionality, [00:27:00] and how can we be really honest with ourselves about the kind of risk tolerance that we have, and how do we build towards being able to trade off more- Mm-hmm

if we are called to do that, if there is a need for it. How do we build up to that? so that was one of the lessons that I had walked away with around trade-offs. Mm-hmm.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah. And I was thinking earlier when you talked about that, like, sure there were choices, but it just felt like the thing it, that you were moved to do and therefore you did it.

It occurred to me that you’re really practiced. you’d written a book with a chapter about trade-offs. Like, you’d spent a lot of time thinking about trade-offs and courage before that time of s- of speaking up. And so when we practice something over and over again, it doesn’t feel so scary, and it feels more like, yeah, that’s a thing that I feel moved to do.

Mm-hmm. And you had spent so much time and practiced so much [00:28:00] being honest, speaking up in alignment with your values, that of course it didn’t feel as scary in that moment. Mm-hmm. That there was so much that you sacrificed and- Mm … and it was like more you had m- you had exercised your courage muscles, and so- Mm-hmm

it was much more of a habit. And when you talk about building the collective capacity to make trade-offs, to build courage, and that we’re, like wh- you said, we’re under-practiced in it.

Michelle MiJung Kim:

Katherine Golub:  totally. I think that that was really s- spot on.

Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I, I absolutely think that courage is a muscle that you need to build-

and not something that you can just analyze your way through, ’cause we also have a tendency to hyperanalyze everything- Right … hyperintellectualize everything. And I, I do think that our body has to learn what courage feels like, what fear feels like, what- Yeah … that hesitation feels like. and I do think that every day there are opportunities for people to practice courage, like micro-courage moments.

Yeah. it, it’s, you know, every [00:29:00] time you hesitate to share something really vulnerable about yourself with somebody that you care about, right? That’s courage. That’s a muscle that you’re building the moment that you decide to take that risk without knowing how they’re gonna respond. That’s a thing that you can do.

like offering to, support a neighbor or even going to introduce yourself to your neighbor. That could feel really scary. Right. That takes courage, right? Like, “Oh, I don’t wanna be awkward. I don’t wanna be the weirdo.” so there are so many ways that you can introduce intentional friction, intentional, fear exercise, if you will- Mm-hmm

to live in your body and for you to actually witness what your body can do in that moment. Right. You know? And it’s, I think, pretty remarkable how quickly we can work up that muscle that we didn’t even know that we had, and what comes after.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah. No, it… I agree. The, the remarkability of like, actually you can go do this thing, and then afterwards-

it’s, it’s… like, mo- usually the risk of [00:30:00] saying hi to your neighbor isn’t that great, right? And maybe- Yeah … it’s like the sense of ease of crossing through that gate and being like, “Oh, I, I, I, like, let go of a little bit of a belief that I couldn’t do that, and here I am someone who says hi to my neighbor.

That’s who I am now.”

Michelle MiJung Kim: one of the speaking engagements that I did, they asked, what is one thing that people can do to practice courage? And, the thing that I encourage people to do, actually, that goes a little bit beyond introducing yourself to a neighbor or, talking to a stranger is, can you be really honest with somebody that you care about-

Katherine Golub:  about a thing that you’ve been feeling?

Michelle MiJung Kim: It doesn’t have to be negative.

The audience was visibly uncomfortable. Like, w- it’s with people you care about, and it’s for the great, for the benefit of the relationship and the resiliency of a relationship. Can you be honest?

And that made people very uncomfortable. So that’s telling, right? Mm-hmm. Like, if we can’t even practice courage at that level, [00:31:00] then yeah, there’s no chance that we can upend our career and go out there and get arrested.

Katherine Golub:  And like you said, it’s not always negative. Often it’s the things that are most vulnerable and scary- Yes

to share are actually the things that bring us the most joy. Like, play is the most vulnerable emotional circuit in the body. Like, okay, how do I let myself be with other people?

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah.

Katherine Golub:  one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, was about your friendship with your friend Kenny.

Mm. That was one of my favorite… I mean, I really loved your entire podcast. Thank you. I didn’t have one favorite episode. I really loved the entire thing. But that one really stuck out, of how you were grappling with whether or not to maintain this friendship that was really important to you with someone who wasn’t vocal, or wasn’t as vocal- Mm-hmm

about the genocide in Gaza. Can you share with folks, like, what that experience of grappling with this friendship… I mean, I’ve had this experience myself, about- Mm … [00:32:00] whether or not to maintain friendships with folks or, who aren’t- Yeah … as engaged, and I’m sure many listeners have had this experience.

Can you share- Yeah … what, what happened and-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, Kenny and I have been friends since we were in college, so we go way back. he’s someone that is so dear to me, who has been through so much with me, who has always been by my side whenever I launched a new thing, whenever I took a risk in my life, who, always supported me.

He would… He’s the person who’s randomly coming by your house to drop off treats for you to have, who never forgets your birthday, who always rallies for you behind your back, right? Like, he is a gem of a person who is loved by many. And I started noticing the drift, when he pursued his career, that felt really different to

how we met. [00:33:00] My day-to-day is filled with talking about social justice. Mm-hmm. Every day, every minute, I am thinking about the issues that are impacting the more s- marginalized communities in our lives, and, that’s, that’s my career.

And that’s my life’s work. And so I’d always known that there was a bit of a disconnect when it comes to the daily embodiment of the values that we hold, and I don’t know if I, was okay with that as much as I didn’t acknowledge it, because I just wanted to be in relationship with him.

but when it came to Palestine, I think all of those things kind of bubbled up to surface, and in a very magnified way, because I was feeling all kinds of emotions. And while I knew that he was pro-Palestine and didn’t support what was happening in Gaza, I had not seen him post anything on social media.

I had not seen him [00:34:00] at any protests that I had invited him to, and I just felt like he was treating the issue as something that I care about because I work in social justice- Mm … but he can care about from afar, that he doesn’t- Mm … have to be involved to the level that I am. and one day I told him that I was very disappointed that I don’t see more from him around this issue that I care so much about, and I got really pissed off when he asked me about how I was doing with regards to Palestine.

He’s like, how’s Palestine, organizing going?” Like, in a way that- Mm … was almost like, “How’s your job going?” Right?

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Mm. And it’s like- Why are you talking about this from the perspective of being an outsider who is completely disconnected from the issue? Because we’re all complicit, and we’re all, we all have blood on our hands.

Katherine Golub:  [00:35:00] Yeah …

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I think there was this sense of disconnection, betrayal, and disappointment that became so hard for me to hold in, that I had to verbalize it and tell him that I was, disappointed that he is not talking about this online.

And I think he was taken aback, because we’d never had this conversation before.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: He thought we were fine, and here I was, dropping this big news that I don’t think our values are aligned anymore. And his reaction was shock, and days later, sitting with the sense of both being judged for his life and the way that he embodies his values, and feeling like he has to prove his worthiness to me to remain in friendship.

And so there [00:36:00] were these c- conflicting needs between the both of us. I needed to feel understood. I needed to feel like my, one of my closest friends was right there beside me- Yeah … expressing the values in a way that I felt aligned with mine. And to him, he had the need to feel validated for who he is, to feel respected for the life that he lives, and to be understood that there were reasons behind why he wasn’t doing that, or there were other ways that he was exercising his values.

So I don’t think either of us was in the wrong. I think there was definitely a mismatch of how we were expressing our values, and there was real hurt on both sides, that were both valid. So essentially, that was the [00:37:00] podcast episode, talking about this whole situation, and I talked to one of my favorite writers, activists, Kai Cheng Thom, who’s a poet, who’s a writer, who is a conflict expert, who talked about why these- mismatch, if you will, or, even small transgressions in our relationships can feel so big.

And I think that really helped me to understand my feelings in context. because it’s not like I was talking to a right-wing fascist, right? Yeah,

Katherine Golub:  yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I’m not gonna be friends with them. Right … definitely cut off my friendship- … with someone who is an outright, alt-right fascist, right?

Mm-hmm. I have no problem doing that. But here was a friend who I know are 99% aligned with my values, but who was expressing their values in a different way, [00:38:00] who was also burdened with a lot of different life stuff that he’s going through, and I still couldn’t muster up the empathy. If anything, I had less empathy and compassion for him than I do for my workshop clients, who are well-intentioned white people with privilege,oftentimes.

And so when I was thinking about that, Kai was like, “But of course you feel more hurt. Of course you feel more activated because you love him.”

And when people we love and trust disappoint us, it feels so much bigger because we are relying on those relationships to be our safety net in this life, where so much harm is happening and so much violence is being targeted at us, people who are marginalized in different ways.

So of course that triggers a whole sense of threat [00:39:00] because this is supposed to be your safety net. your support system. and so I think that helped me to have some language for why that moment felt so big, aside from the fact that, yes, it was genoc- it’s genocide, right? Mm-hmm. And that’s kind of the, sarcastic remark that I made to Kenny, was like, “It’s genocide,” what are you doing, basically.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: in a very patronizing, self-righteous way.

And then also thinking about all the ways in which I am not in any way perfect in the way that I embody my values either, right? Mm-hmm. So That whole situation, I, I feel, isn’t as clear-cut as people make it seem on social media, right, where a lot of the times people are saying, “Yeah, if you did not speak up for Palestine, I don’t wanna know you,” or, “If you disagree with XYZ, then, you’re not my friend.”

Because I [00:40:00] realized the circle of trust is getting smaller and smaller as we do that. Mm-hmm. And the level of resilience that we have as a collective is eroding very quickly. And this is not to say that we should be allowing or understanding all types of transgressions or ways that people make excuses, when they’re not actually in alignment with their values.

But it is to say that we have to struggle for our relationships, and that struggle is worthwhile. and that I, I hope that the people in my life will hold me accountable with love and care and criticality when I am doing something that hurts them, or do s- I… when I do something that disappoints them.

That I would hope that we are at a point where we can be that honest with each other, and that we can withstand that level of honesty in the [00:41:00] relationship. And I think that’s ultimately what we proved, me and Kenny, that we can. And we each are sturdy enough to handle really hurtful truths from the other person, and that we care about each other enough to want to rebuild the trust, to rebuild the connection that we long for.

and that we can make choices that also, honor the need of the other person.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So the way that Kenny showed up for me also is after that whole phase of conflict and rupture- He started posting about Palestine online, which made me feel really good. Yes. he just helped put together a fundraiser for Palestine, and so things like that, right?

I know i- he’s not doing it just for me. But it certainly [00:42:00] feels really heartwarming to know that, when he is engaging in those things that he knows that I’m paying attention to.

And for me, I’m also always checking myself on, being curious about what is happening in his life, and wanting to give grace and support in ways that, he doesn’t often ask, but he needs.

So we’re adapting, we’re learning how to be friends again. Mm-hmm. And in a way that feels really, That feels tender, that feels caring, and also, in a way that doesn’t betray our needs, because I think that’s also that either/or binary thinking. It’s like if you remain in friendship with the person that you disagree with, somehow you are betraying your own values.

I don’t think so anymore. it does feel hard to do it, but it’s not an all or nothing situation, I don’t think. I truly believe that we went through that conflict without either [00:43:00] of us betraying ourselves and our needs and our truths.

And made space and made capacity to honor the other person’s needs.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And yeah. So it, really hard time in my friendship. Yeah. and I did lose some friends during that time. There were people that I didn’t make an effort to repair.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I was okay with that, and I made a very conscious decision to hold onto my friendship with Kenny.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah, I appreciate you using the word betray at the end of that. And all along I was thinking, yeah, with the amount of betrayal that you felt from losing your work and, like, your world-

Michelle MiJung Kim: …

Katherine Golub:  it makes sense that you would have felt that sense of betrayal from your closest people who weren’t right there with you.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah.

Katherine Golub:  and yet, you both did honor your needs, right? Mm-hmm. And he was there with you through that conversation- Mm-hmm … and through the rupture and the repair. [00:44:00] we can feel this deep sense of hurt and really hold a story that we’re being betrayed, right?

When actually someone is still there at the table with us.

I’m curious for folks who are discerning whether or not to maintain a friendship where there’s a sense of betrayal or-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Hmm …

Katherine Golub:  wow, I’m going through this really hard thing, especially politically, and someone’s not there with me. What words of wisdom might you have for listeners-

who are trying to discern that? ‘Cause there were some relationships that you said, “No, I don’t-” Yeah … “choose to maintain them. I don’t.” Yeah. “And this one I do.” Yeah. And so how, how to discern that, how to repair like you did with Kenny-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah …

Katherine Golub:  how was that for you?

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think I almost had this feeling of anticipatory grief around a relationship ending-

Katherine Golub:  Mm …

Michelle MiJung Kim: and how that made my [00:45:00] whole body feel just sad. Yeah. I was just really sad thinking about being disconnected and being, not on speaking terms or being estranged from my friend. I felt This, overwhelming desire, one, to speak honestly to him, because what I felt was I felt like I was screening his calls.

I felt like I was creating- Mm … distance between me and him, and I felt bad every time he asked me to do something, I said no, that there was something deeper underlining that distance that he doesn’t know about. So I would say, and I think everybody knows what I’m talking about, this quiet quitting friendship.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think that if this is a person that you care about, that you cared about once upon a time, I do think that it’s an act of courage to initiate a conversation that [00:46:00] may be really difficult, and to at least bring what is sitting inside you to the surface to see what happens. because so often we end a friendship without even letting the other person know that that’s happening.

We do it in a very quiet, one direction kind of way that leaves people hanging. And I think if we want to practice collective courage together, this is one of the things that we need to practice. Mm-hmm. That we need to try out. can we be honest about where we are and how this is impacting our relationship?

And while you’re thinking about that, aside from the discomfort and the fear of the unknown response back from the friend, If you’re thinking that level of effort is just not worth it, then I think it’s worth examining that, too. is it because you just don’t value this friendship and you never really did, so you’d rather [00:47:00] not spend that time?

Or is that just coming from your fear of having a difficult conversation?

Katherine Golub:  Mm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I think that will give you some answers around how to approach the relationship. and if anything, I think that it’s, even with an acquaintance, you can have honest conversations as a practice for courage. I had a very difficult conversation with someone that I really respect, who’s not a friend, but who had a very different approach to the whole situation that shocked me, and we sat in a cafe for almost two hours-

Katherine Golub:  Hmm

Michelle MiJung Kim: in a what felt like, it wasn’t an argument per se, but more like a, me trying to understand where she was coming from and simultaneously feeling shocked and, trying so desperately to convince her to see it another way.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: And we remain in relationship but we didn’t have [00:48:00] that history of friendship to really hold, and to act as a glue for our relationship.

so I think even in those scenarios, what I think actually happened is that really difficult conversation gave both of us an opportunity to value the relationship in a different way.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: That, okay, we can stay with this level of conflict. Mm-hmm. We don’t have the kinda history that I have with Kenny, but there’s something here that lets us believe that we are going to be able to fight for each other because there is a greater alignment around, community and collective building toward a world that we want, and our approaches may be different, but our underlying values are the same.

And I think many people also go on their own journey of learning, and [00:49:00] I think this person changed their mind over time.

I don’t know how much of that was influenced by our conversation or just, you know, I think the world is catching up finally on what is happening in Gaza. Mm-hmm. and how Israel has been spreading this narrative around Zionism and antisemitism being the same.

So I do think that the vast majority of at least people who are rooted in social justice values are seeing things clearly now than three years ago. So there’s that too, that- Mm-hmm … sometimes people just take a long ti- a longer time. There’s a longer timeline for people to get to where you are, and that may be the same thing for you for someone else.

Katherine Golub:  I’m curious how you discern how to relate to your judgment, One of my favorite quotes is, “Love is 90% pacing.”

I don’t know what the 90% exactly means. Mm. But it’s like, love is pacing, right? Yeah. and some people do move slower, and yet the grief [00:50:00] of not everybody responding, you know, two and a half years ago, right? And, you were like, “Yeah, I do criticize people.”

Part of the role that you play- Yes … systemically is holding really important critique.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah.

Katherine Golub:  And so on the one hand, wanting to pace well and not break relationship; on another hand, wanting to criticize when, like in the ways we need to be criticizing.

And so I’m curious how you discern how to wield your judgment-

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah …

Katherine Golub:  and be in relationship with it.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think I’m constantly learning- Uh-huh. … because I… Also, I’m a Virgo and rising, uh, Capricorn, so I am a very critical person, often because I am a very critical person to myself. Uh, I think that is also what is underlying so much of this externalizing of critique- Mm … is that I am very, very harsh to myself.

So I’m [00:51:00] also trying to soften that, because that then helps me to embody my values in a different way with other people. And I do think that the amount of time that I have spent in social justice is what actually gives me the most amount of compassion. And I can say that because I, I can see the growth that I’ve gone through, and the journey and the time it took me to understand things that people have been shouting about.

And I think we all play different roles at different times, and we can be… we should be honest about where we are because, to your point, we become that resource for other people to learn from. And there are times when some people will learn better when the messenger is someone else, when the message is delivered in a s- a different way.

So that’s also true, too, and I think we all have different roles that we play in the ecosystem for change. And [00:52:00] there are moments when I am the harshest critic in the room, and then there are moments when I am really working hard to meet people where they are, and I think that’s context-based. Whether I’m not going to go into a workshop and start berating the audience and, tell them that they are not living in alignment with their values and that they should do better

maybe in a workshop that people consent to that. But that I have realized is not an effective way to create change. And in my personal life, I tend to be the most critical voice in the room. and I have been that way since I was in college, and people still remember the way that I was back then,

So I do think that that helped- expose people in my life to the level of thinking and criticism, even if they don’t agree, even if they can’t see it now, it is something that will serve a purpose down the line. And so keep being honest [00:53:00] about what your needs are, what you’re learning. I think that does help in a way that you may not know until later in life.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Because there are people that I was friends with in college who weren’t interested in social justice issues at all, who are now activists in their community, or who are that critical friend talking to their friends who are not aware. So you just never know how you are touching people’s lives, by just being honest about where you are.

And I do think that at a time when so much is shifting, when so much is hinging on our ability to organize together, building a large enough tent where people can join in is critical. So if you are someone who can, who have the capacity to welcome people in and share your notes about what you’ve learned, and be a gentle welcomer to the movement so that someone like me can be more harsh and critical, and, you know,

You can tend [00:54:00] to their, need to be seen for being there, I think we can all be playing different roles at a different time for different people to be effective in creating the change that is sustainable, and creating a movement that’s actually enjoyable for many people, right?

and I think there’s a lot of hurt on many sides. I think people who’ve been doing this work for a very long time, some of them are really frustrated that people are taking fucking long to get on board because people are dying, right? That’s a very real response, It’s a very valid response from people who have been traumatized, who’ve been overburdened with the responsibility of solving for all these things that they didn’t create.

And it’s also a very valid need for people to feel, held and understood for their effort. And th- they don’t necessarily have to, coincide in terms of the person who’s serving the people’s need, right? That we all need different spaces to [00:55:00] be able to process what we need. So I would say that’s the discernment piece around judgment, and being able to use it in a way that feels good for you, depending on the context.

Katherine Golub:  what do you know about what’s next for you? I really appreciate your writing on DEI, on LinkedIn, and hear how fraught that- Mm-hmm … space is. Um- Mm-hmm … I’m curious what’s next and what is bubbling up for you-

Michelle MiJung Kim: now.

I wish that I wasn’t always feeling like I’m doing the bridge work, because it’s really hard to be in that position.

I think the whole time I was working in DEI inside tech and corporate America, I felt- torn. I felt like there was a part of me that just wanted to burn everything down, and then there was a part of me that, felt the need and saw the very [00:56:00] real need to bring people into the fold, especially those people who have power to change things.

and the reconciling, oh my gosh, feeling like a sellout, but also feeling like I am doing what is needed to be done without the celebration and acknowledgement from my social justice community. So I think that also was part of the reason why I was so burnt out at the end of my, journey as an entrepreneur at Awaken.

And I think I’m heading back in to that role.

With the rise of AI, which is also causing a lot of rift in our community in terms of people who are vehemently against it for good reasons, and for people who are also trying to bring marginalized people into the conversation so we can change something that is happening without so many of our voices.

But [00:57:00] I am, planning on launching a course that talks about AI fundamentals for social justice leaders.

Katherine Golub:  Hmm. It’s

Michelle MiJung Kim: not necessarily about whether AI is good or bad. It’s about giving people the tools to make those decisions and to think critically about this technology in a way that gives them some confidence, in a way that, allows them to make hard decisions and to articulate their point of view with credibility, ’cause we need that more than ever.

I want more social justice oriented people to join in the conversation in a way that is, Not all or nothing.

Katherine Golub:

Michelle MiJung Kim: And I’m already anticipating a lot of backlash.

And I think this is the work that I thrive in, and, I feel called to do this work. So that’s what’s to come, and I am, fine-tuning my framework around [00:58:00] courage and collective courage.

Katherine Golub:  Mm-hmm.

Michelle MiJung Kim: where can people learn more about that, and just learn more about you and from you

my website is, michellemijungkim.com, and, you can follow me on social media, on LinkedIn and Instagram at michellekimkim. Subscribe to my newsletter to get the updates on when these programs drop. So you can subscribe to my newsletter on my website.

Katherine Golub:  Great, and I wanna add the plug for your podcast and your book.

Michelle MiJung Kim: yes.

Katherine Golub:  yeah. And so I will include- those things.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah.

Katherine Golub:  I will include the links to them.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Thank you …

Katherine Golub:  highly recommend listening to the podcast. I listened to the entire thing, which is a huge- Amazing

compliment, actually, so. Thank you so much. Yeah. I really appreciate it. it was great.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So- Awesome …

Katherine Golub:  was this conversation. Thank you.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yes, thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for the thoughtful questions and sharing your stories as well.

Katherine Golub:  Mm. Oh, can I ask you one more thing, just- Yeah

like, to, to share with the Inanna story. To go through a labyrinth, right? So many cultures throughout the world have these unicursal labyrinths- [00:59:00] Mm-hmm … where there’s one path in and one path out. And so to exit the labyrinth, you have to take the same path out, and the exit is the same as the entrance.

So when you say you think you’re heading back, back into it Oh. It’s like, “Oh, of course you are,” like…

Michelle MiJung Kim: I… I know. I thought I was so done. And here I am. but you know, I say the work chose me, not the other way around.

Katherine Golub:  Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: yeah. So-

Katherine Golub:  I know that. …

Michelle MiJung Kim: I just gotta embrace that and see where life takes me.